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Weatherman

Jay Peak and Burke financial results

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https://vtdigger.org/2017/04/30/jay-peak-profits-rise-9-million-officials-report/

Jay Peak reported a profit increase from $1.8M to $9M on $50M revenue. They're expecting $4.7M in profit for an average season. That is impressive. With that kind of money the tram project doesn't sounds so scary.

Burke is projected to lose a little under $2M. If they can't make a profit this year, can they ever? That doesn't give me good feelings.

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My understanding is Burke has rarely turned a profit in the past. The hotel could eventually help that as could more condos to increase the critical mass of skiers that are there weekends and holidays.

 

Here's the thing though. If you compare the data published on New England Ski History, Burke and Wildcat both average about 75K skier visits a year. They both also have very minimal lift infrastructure to operate and probably make snow on a similar amount of trails. Did Wildcat lose $2M this season as well? I have no idea. However, if Wildcat actually is profitable, why couldn't Burke be run in the black when they have very similar businesses (outside of the hotel).

 

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5 minutes ago, deadheadskier said:

My understanding is Burke has rarely turned a profit in the past. The hotel could eventually help that as could more condos to increase the critical mass of skiers that are there weekends and holidays.

 

Here's the thing though. If you compare the data published on New England Ski History, Burke and Wildcat both average about 75K skier visits a year. They both also have very minimal lift infrastructure to operate and probably make snow on a similar amount of trails. Did Wildcat lose $2M this season as well? I have no idea. However, if Wildcat actually is profitable, why couldn't Burke be run in the black when they have very similar businesses (outside of the hotel).

 

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I didn't realize the two had such comparable skier visits. I assumed Wildcat would do a lot more business given its location.

I have no idea if Wildcat made a profit this year. I'd easily believe that it regularly loses money. I think its real purpose in the Peak Resorts portfolio is to give them an early and late season operation so they can shutter Attitash.

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You're probably right regarding Wildcat/Attitash. Though Wildcat can be run so efficiently midweek during peak season with three lifts and one minimally staffed base lodge that they be might able to make a little money.

 

In terms of being stand alone areas, I think Burke is better set up to make money than Wildcat. It's closer and easier to get to from Boston and has the benefit of slopeside real estate.

 

What is surprising is seeing Burke operate so late into April this year despite being so far in the red. You'd think they'd close early and send folks up to Jay.

 

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If Burke lost $2 million, I think Wildcat made a bit of profit. Burke has 2 HSQs, two base lodges, cheaper lift tickets, and more deals out there. I'm not sure the hotel even broke even this year too given how cheap they were selling rooms at times. 

I think Wildcat is better situated to make money though. There's nothing around Burke really. Wildcat has Conway and other ski areas near by to draw some traffic up that way. Additionally to get to Burke from Boston you literally drive right by Cannon and Loon so nabbing day trippers is hard.

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2 hours ago, Jully said:

If Burke lost $2 million, I think Wildcat made a bit of profit. Burke has 2 HSQs, two base lodges, cheaper lift tickets, and more deals out there. I'm not sure the hotel even broke even this year too given how cheap they were selling rooms at times. 

I think Wildcat is better situated to make money though. There's nothing around Burke really. Wildcat has Conway and other ski areas near by to draw some traffic up that way. Additionally to get to Burke from Boston you literally drive right by Cannon and Loon so nabbing day trippers is hard.

I went to Burke on a random Tuesday in February and had a really nice day.  The place was mostly Burke Mountain Academy racers using the mid Burke lodge.  I doubt besides them they sold too many tickets that day.  I feel the new hotel is really going to hurt their operation.  Burke would be perfect to run on a similar schedule to Pico or Magic with only the what will be a t-bar next year running off days for BMA. But having a large hotel now puts Burke more in the 7 day a week resort category and they will need to keep the mountain open for the handful of hotel guests on a midweek day.  

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11 hours ago, Weatherman said:

https://vtdigger.org/2017/04/30/jay-peak-profits-rise-9-million-officials-report/

Jay Peak reported a profit increase from $1.8M to $9M on $50M revenue. They're expecting $4.7M in profit for an average season. That is impressive. With that kind of money the tram project doesn't sounds so scary.

This year it is like something happened up there, most trail reports from Jay this year mentioned liftlines, and not just the typical busy times. As much as I hate everything Jay, they do the best job getting the word out about snowfall on social media.When I went up on a Tuesday in mid January there were probably there was always a couple people waiting to get on the Jet or Bonnie and the lodge was pretty busy and we were not able to sit at the bar by 2pm.

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1 minute ago, Flying Yeti said:

This year it is like something happened up there, most trail reports from Jay this year mentioned liftlines, and not just the typical busy times. As much as I hate everything Jay, they do the best job getting the word out about snowfall on social media.When I went up on a Tuesday in mid January there were probably there was always a couple people waiting to get on the Jet or Bonnie and the lodge was pretty busy and we were not able to sit at the bar by 2pm.

I'm having a really hard time reconciling lift lines with Jay. Maybe I'm just lucky, but I've never waited in any significant lines there.

Jay seems to draw two crowds... the diehards there for the skiing and the ski bunnies there for the posh accommodations. That is one reason I like to ski Jay: there is always something besides skiing to keep my wife occupied.

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Being part of the peaks pass, it must be challenging to quantify how profitable Wildcat is on its own.  

Wildcat is a great skiers mountain, but the lack of available deals keeps it off my radar.  It's easier to get a deal at Stowe than at Wildcat.  That's ridiculous. 

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4 minutes ago, BumpOut said:

It's easier to get a deal at Stowe than at Wildcat.  That's ridiculous. 

Ski VT must be the deal you are referring to to get to Stowe for $43. Wildcat doesn't have a ton of deals but they do offer some:

https://www.skiwildcat.com/deals/

Also, the Peaks passport which can be bought in late November for $150 is a nice value. Ski CM, Snow, Attitash, and Wildcat and then get a 5th bonus day at the mtn of your choice.

I would think you can easily ski Wildcat 3 days on that booklet. No blackout days either so $30/day

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6 minutes ago, BumpOut said:

Being part of the peaks pass, it must be challenging to quantify how profitable Wildcat is on its own.  

Wildcat is a great skiers mountain, but the lack of available deals keeps it off my radar.  It's easier to get a deal at Stowe than at Wildcat.  That's ridiculous. 

Is this true? I didn't realize deals were so hard to come by. They give a decent discount of bring-a-friend tickets if you go with a pass holder. And I always have a bunch of tickets for use Sunday - Friday as long as I am there to cash them in. Plus they do a bunch of ski club awareness days just like Stowe, but I don't think they advertise them quite as effectively.

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18 minutes ago, BumpOut said:

Being part of the peaks pass, it must be challenging to quantify how profitable Wildcat is on its own.  

Wildcat is a great skiers mountain, but the lack of available deals keeps it off my radar.  It's easier to get a deal at Stowe than at Wildcat.  That's ridiculous. 

X2, There is nothing for Wildcat and I don't want to ski all the other Peaks places in order to get 2 days at Wildcat. I remember a few years ago there were more deals. If I could ski just there for under $40 I would take the 8 hours in the car.

Edited by Flying Yeti

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1 minute ago, Flying Yeti said:

X2, There is nothing for Wildcat and I don't want to ski all the other Peaks places in order to get 2 days at Wildcat. I remember a few years ago there were more deals. If I could ski just there for under $40 I would take the 8 hours in the car.

Noted. I'll keep this in mind as I reach out them this summer. I think we can arrange something, at least for a couple pre-planned weekends.

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4 minutes ago, Flying Yeti said:

X2, There is nothing for Wildcat and I don't want to ski all the other Peaks places in order to get 2 days at Wildcat. I remember a few years ago there were more deals. If I could ski just there for under $40 I would take the 8 hours in the car.

It would be 3 days at Wildcat since the Attitash/Wildcat ticket is transferable. You probably would need to redeem at Tash in order to get the stamp though and then drive up to WC.

 

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16 minutes ago, xwhaler said:

Ski VT must be the deal you are referring to to get to Stowe for $43. Wildcat doesn't have a ton of deals but they do offer some:

https://www.skiwildcat.com/deals/

Also, the Peaks passport which can be bought in late November for $150 is a nice value. Ski CM, Snow, Attitash, and Wildcat and then get a 5th bonus day at the mtn of your choice.

I would think you can easily ski Wildcat 3 days on that booklet. No blackout days either so $30/day

The discount days are good, but you are certainly limited to when you can use them.  

The passport is also decent, but my interest level in going to the Boston ski show is somewhere in the neighborhood of zero.  Also, I am mostly interested in WC special deals (and Crotched also) without having strings attached.  

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The old Wildcard deal was a good one. It was $50 early season and incuded one ticket and then 50% off midweek tickets and 25% off weekends. The discount was applicable to early and late season rates plus it could be used on the cheap Sunday afternoon ticket. This brought the price of early and late skiing almost in line with K and SR which both can typically be skied for $30-40 in November with more terrain available than Wildcat.

That is the product I bought before starting to buy season passes in 2013-14. I'd use the $50 ticket mid season, a couple early and late days and couple of Sundays. I'd basically get 5 days on the hill with 2 being half days for about $150.

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5 minutes ago, Flying Yeti said:

Still $50 a day then to ski the legendary meow pow. How are the ski club deals there? Also, every any BOGOs? 

Here are the ski club days from this year.

590744674efb6_AttitashWildcat.SkiClubandSkiCouncilAppreciationDays16_17.thumb.png.e1611438a6ba7b3a3f8a29853c67c73c.png

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2 minutes ago, Flying Yeti said:

Still $50 a day then to ski the legendary meow pow. How are the ski club deals there? Also, every any BOGOs? 

$50/day if you punt on CM or Snow I guess, yes.

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6 minutes ago, BumpOut said:

The discount days are good, but you are certainly limited to when you can use them.  

The passport is also decent, but my interest level in going to the Boston ski show is somewhere in the neighborhood of zero.  Also, I am mostly interested in WC special deals (and Crotched also) without having strings attached.  

I agree that going to Boston to buy that passport makes it annoying. 2 yrs ago you could buy it online on Cyber Monday but last yr they made it a ski show only thing.

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Absolutely, great deal. 

 

In regards to Jay, between MSC, gas points, etc., I think they might have more BOGO offers than anyone else in VT.

Edited by Flying Yeti

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55 minutes ago, deadheadskier said:

The old Wildcard deal was a good one. It was $50 early season and incuded one ticket and then 50% off midweek tickets and 25% off weekends. The discount was applicable to early and late season rates plus it could be used on the cheap Sunday afternoon ticket. This brought the price of early and late skiing almost in line with K and SR which both can typically be skied for $30-40 in November with more terrain available than Wildcat.

That is the product I bought before starting to buy season passes in 2013-14. I'd use the $50 ticket mid season, a couple early and late days and couple of Sundays. I'd basically get 5 days on the hill with 2 being half days for about $150.

Sent from my XT1565 using Northeast Mountain Sports mobile app
 

I certainly missed the Vertical Value Card when they stopped offering it. 

They offer a promo called the Winter White Sale (or something like that) in September/October which lets you buy midweek tickets for $35. If you redeem them late enough in the season you can apply them to your season pass too (I redeemed 2 tickets and took them both off the pass price). 

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5 hours ago, xwhaler said:

I agree that going to Boston to buy that passport makes it annoying. 2 yrs ago you could buy it online on Cyber Monday but last yr they made it a ski show only thing.

The passport was not limited to the show. It wasn't offered to the public until after the show but it was available online. The same with the Winter White sale. They were released after the ski expo. 

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I am not surprised that Burke looses money with the skier visits it has. IMO it is a unfound gem that has a bunch of great terain , great trees, interesting trails and a great beginner pod that my bride loves. The hotel is very nice , definitely over built for the area. They need to spend some time and money on a advertising campaign to get more folks on the slopes

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