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On 1/12/2018 at 4:37 PM, StraightSkis said:

I wouldn't trust those ones, but Apex is making a higher quality version. I am lightly considering getting a pair. https://www.apexskiboots.com/

Have you demo'd Apex Boots yet?

I demo'd a pair of Apex boots in early Jan.  They are sold at Freestyle in Charlottesville, VA, which does the demo weekend at Massanutten.  The Apex rep who brought his van also does shoes in Europe.  He's been with the company for a while.  Apparently the models for this season are the 10th generation.  The chassis continues to get smaller and lighter.  Definitely some differences from last year's models.

I liked the boots up to a point.  Certainly like the idea of being able to walk around in more comfortable boots.  Had plenty of control carving with on Head Absolut Joys.  I was using demo skis but I own AJs.  One hesitation I have about buying a pair when my current boots are due for replacement is that the BSL is significantly longer.  My BSL is 275 and the Apex model that fits me would be 291.  Since I just bought new all-mountain skis, not excited about the idea of moving the bindings.  But may feel differently in a few years.

What I've heard is that Apex boots are not great for people with large calves or high volume insteps.  My calves aren't that large, but my legs are on the short side.  So the top of the boots would need to be adjusted for a comfortable fit.  For regular boots, I went with a 3-buckle model to have shorter boots.

Edited by MarzNC
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The Envy Frame is designed for single Boa snowboard boots.  Has four buckles.  The Apex boot is a double Boa boot that can also be used for a snowboard and has three buckles.  Cannot buy the boot or chassis separately.  Apex boots have heat moldable liners.  The goal is comfort with control.  Not necessarily the same as a high performance boot or for racing, but I could do the same moves as my current boots.

Envy is marketing to the beginning and intermediate skier.  Price is $379 but also have to buy snowboard boots, assuming don't already have a pair.  Apex is not limiting their product by skiing ability and they are probably going more for intermediate and advanced skiers.  Prices are $700-1000.

Edited by MarzNC
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26 minutes ago, MarzNC said:

The Envy Frame is designed for single Boa snowboard boots.  Has four buckles.  The Apex boot is a double Boa boot that can also be used for a snowboard and has three buckles.  Cannot buy the boot or chassis separately.  Apex boots have heat moldable liners.  The goal is comfort with control.  Not necessarily the same as a high performance boot or for racing, but I could do the same moves as my current boots.

Envy is marketing to the beginning and intermediate skier.  Price is $379 but also have to buy snowboard boots, assuming don't already have a pair.  Apex is not limiting their product by skiing ability and they are probably going more for intermediate and advanced skiers.  Prices are $700-1000.

I haven't demo'd yet, but have had them on my feet two times, the most recent time being last weekend. The shop only had the HP in my size, not the high performance XP. The HP has a thicker liner, which I don't want, and are softer, which I don't want. You are 100% correct that the sole length is shorter than before. The rep up here in New England that they recruited said he wouldn't rep them unless they reduced the sole length and the number of models for this season, which Apex did, so he reps them now. Sales guy at Stan & Dan's in North Conway says they sold twice the pairs they expected to, and they brought people back into skiing who gave up because of boot problems. 

I spend 80-90% of my day in the bumps in trees now, which is why I want these boots. I will leave my groomer skis set up to my current boots and set up my tree/mogul skis to these boots. 

 

 

Edited by StraightSkis
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As a snowboarder/skier I think that skiers may not completely understand snowboard boots. I completely understand that skiers watch snowboarders walking around the lodge and are envious of how easy and comfortable it looks (hey I just realized why this brand is called ENVY...duh!). But so what? Running sneakers are even more comfortable, that doesn't make them potential ski boots. My couch is more comfortable than my truck seat, that doesn't mean I want to modify it for highway driving. Snowboarding boots are a specifically designed piece of equipment just like the rest of our gear. I love my Ride snowboard boots when I'm snowboarding because they are very well designed for that purpose. I love my Lange ski boots for skiing because they are equally well designed and specific. I've never wanted to trade their designs, attributes, or functions.

With all that said, yes it's true snowboard boots are more comfortable than ski boots. If that's your primary consideration... Start snowboarding! You'll find out that boot comfort is the least of the reasons to love it!

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Cannonballer, I 100% agree. The thing is I want a softer flex boot for the trees and moguls so I figure why not get one that feels good, too. Also, calling the Apex liner a snowboard boot is a little off. The Envy uses a snowboard boot, but the Apex does not. It's pretty much a littler plusher than a standard liner with a sort-of sole on the bottom. 

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24 minutes ago, Cannonballer said:

As a snowboarder/skier I think that skiers may not completely understand snowboard boots. . . .

What type of liner is used in a snowboard boot?  Is it possible to replace the liner?  To have a heat moldable liner?

The Apex system is actually three pieces: chassis (connects to boot and binding), soft boot with double Boa, heat moldable liner.  There are a bunch of different ways to adjust the fit of the boot besides molding the liner.  It's definitely meant to be comparable to custom fit ski boots.

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9 hours ago, MarzNC said:

What type of liner is used in a snowboard boot?  Is it possible to replace the liner?  To have a heat moldable liner?

Most higher end snowboard boots have heat-moldable liners.  Mine have Intuition liners that are very similar to the ones in my ski boots. 

 

9 hours ago, MarzNC said:

The Apex system is actually three pieces: chassis (connects to boot and binding), soft boot with double Boa, heat moldable liner.  There are a bunch of different ways to adjust the fit of the boot besides molding the liner.  It's definitely meant to be comparable to custom fit ski boots.

I didn't realize that about the Apex system.  That seems like it could work.  

Sticking a random snowboard boot into a frame like the envy system seems like it would have lots of problems.  The liner isn't one of them. The biggest concern I'd have is forward lean.  You typically find (and want) much more forward lean in a ski boot vs a snowboard boot.  For the Envy system to perform like a ski boot the frame would need to force the snowboard boot into greater forward lean.  Doing that would be fighting the shape and design of the snowboard boot and would probably cause all kinds of uncomfortable pressure points.  That kind of defeats the purpose.  

I think that a soft-flex, well-fit ski boot would achieve the results better than an odd hybrid fix.  

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7 minutes ago, Cannonballer said:
1 hour ago, Puck it said:
Brother has Apex due to his outrageously fat feet.  They also require the binding to mounted at a very large separation.

What does he think of them?

I think he likes them, but he has no other option.  so he has to.  He has tried three different pairs though to get the fit right.  

 

These are the one he has.

 

Big Mountain

Edited by Puck it
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40 minutes ago, xwhaler said:

Beyond what appears like you would lack in forward and lateral stability what would also concern me is how far raised up off the ski you would be

Definitely not within the FIS rules.

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Since we are on the subject here's another version   http://www.madjacksnowsports.com/

From a snowboarding perspective there is something else I find interesting.  The Envy frame is advertised with a Flow brand snowboard boot.  This Mad Jack frame is more like a Flow binding than the other frames.  What's interesting about this is that when Flow snowboard bindings first came out they were dismissed as a novelty because they are "rear entry" vs a traditional snowboard "top entry" binding.  Fifteen years later Flow makes some of the highest end of all the snowboarding bindings on the market, and virtually every brand has a rear entry binding model.   So based on all of that, maybe (just maybe) the ski frame concept may be on to something legit and shouldn't be completely dismissed. 

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On 1/18/2018 at 1:40 PM, Puck it said:

I think he likes them, but he has no other option.  so he has to.  He has tried three different pairs though to get the fit right.  

These are the one he has.

Big Mountain

I think that's the model my main ski buddy just bought at Steamboat.  I'll be skiing with him at Taos in a few weeks.

His BSL went from 307 to 321.  He said the Apex boots & chassis barely fit in his boot bag.

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